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#61525: "Ending game by swapping tiles does not award monument points"
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規則：遊戲規則有所錯漏
細節描述
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• 遊戲規則的哪部分在 BGA 版本有所錯漏？
This happened in a previous game.
I believe this is how it is supposed to work: When ending the game by swapping tiles to empty the bag, you should still get points from any monuments that would trigger. Similarly if you end the game by taking the last treasure with your 1st action. The turn still plays out.
This is addressed in the Chris Lawson FAQ for Tigris & Euphrates, so hopefully it is official. -
• 這項違反規則之處可否在遊戲重播中看到？若可以是在哪步？（重播時左上角資訊）
no
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Google Chrome v99
案件沿革
2022年Apr21日 16:41 • thenmal • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
The most recent version of the rulebook, the z-man edition (images.zmangames.com/filer_public/92/3f/923f8aba-72f1-4aa5-9622-d648ad1a9aa7/kn25_rulebook_web.pdf) states the following in the End of Game section.
The game ends when either of the following conditions are met:
‡ Only one or two treasures remain on the board at the
end of a player’s turn, or
‡ A player who is attempting to draw a tile is unable to
because the bag is empty.
At this point all players lower their screens. Each player
determines in which sphere they possess the fewest number
of victory points, with each player freely allocating his treasures
to any sphere(s) (see “Treasure Distribution” on page 12).
The player whose lowest sphere has the highest number of
victory points is the winner. In the case of a tie, the tied players
compare their second lowest spheres, and so on. If multiple
tied players are evenly matched in all four spheres, those players
share the victory.
That reads to me as the game ends immediately upon the failed draw, with no further scoring.
If there has been an official errata stating otherwise it could be changed.
Do you have a link to the Chris Lawson FAQ?
The game ends when either of the following conditions are met:
‡ Only one or two treasures remain on the board at the
end of a player’s turn, or
‡ A player who is attempting to draw a tile is unable to
because the bag is empty.
At this point all players lower their screens. Each player
determines in which sphere they possess the fewest number
of victory points, with each player freely allocating his treasures
to any sphere(s) (see “Treasure Distribution” on page 12).
The player whose lowest sphere has the highest number of
victory points is the winner. In the case of a tie, the tied players
compare their second lowest spheres, and so on. If multiple
tied players are evenly matched in all four spheres, those players
share the victory.
That reads to me as the game ends immediately upon the failed draw, with no further scoring.
If there has been an official errata stating otherwise it could be changed.
Do you have a link to the Chris Lawson FAQ?
2022年Apr21日 16:57 • boomerang1 • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
Hmm, I dug a little further into this.
Seems there may be no consensus, but here is a thread on the topic. Chris Lawson actually spoke to Knizia about this.
boardgamegeek.com/thread/2697313/ending-game-tile-swap-and-one-implication
Apparently the original German rules only end the game after both actions and end of turn happens, but the English translation is worded as you posted above indicating the game should end immediately. I know the old BGG implementation of T&E would let the turn play out (both actions+monument points) even when you swapped tiles to end the game.
Seems there may be no consensus, but here is a thread on the topic. Chris Lawson actually spoke to Knizia about this.
boardgamegeek.com/thread/2697313/ending-game-tile-swap-and-one-implication
Apparently the original German rules only end the game after both actions and end of turn happens, but the English translation is worded as you posted above indicating the game should end immediately. I know the old BGG implementation of T&E would let the turn play out (both actions+monument points) even when you swapped tiles to end the game.
2022年Apr21日 16:58 • boomerang1 • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
2022年Jun13日 15:46 • thenmal • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
This fell off my radar back when you linked to the Chris Lawson FAQ, which is quite clear.
I hesitate to make a change that is contrary to the rules as written in the most recent rulebook, but also don't want to have the game work differently than experienced players expect...
I especially don't want to add a game option that changes scoring at the very end of the game and surprise anyone playing.
I will need to think on this more, and maybe once the game picks up some more steam on this platform make a players group and discuss weird corner cases such as this in said group.
I hesitate to make a change that is contrary to the rules as written in the most recent rulebook, but also don't want to have the game work differently than experienced players expect...
I especially don't want to add a game option that changes scoring at the very end of the game and surprise anyone playing.
I will need to think on this more, and maybe once the game picks up some more steam on this platform make a players group and discuss weird corner cases such as this in said group.
2022年Aug29日 00:02 • tigriscraig • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
+1 to this bug report.
I have been running the the E&T event at WBC for over a decade (boardgamers.org/eventhistory/e&t.html) and have always allowed the second action and monument points if the first action swap exhausted the tile bag, per the FAQ and designer's intent. Back when E&T was on bgg (and earlier on gametableonline), this is how it was implemented.
I expect that all of the top experienced players (online and over the board) would expect the game rules to match the FAQ.
For the Z-man rules reprint, I would think that was likely an oversight or typographical error instead of a deliberate rules change. The sentence to "A player who is attempting to draw a tile is unable to
because the bag is empty" could be clarified with some extra phrasing, but it becomes awkward english.
images.zmangames.com/filer_public/92/3f/923f8aba-72f1-4aa5-9622-d648ad1a9aa7/kn25_rulebook_web.pdf
I have been running the the E&T event at WBC for over a decade (boardgamers.org/eventhistory/e&t.html) and have always allowed the second action and monument points if the first action swap exhausted the tile bag, per the FAQ and designer's intent. Back when E&T was on bgg (and earlier on gametableonline), this is how it was implemented.
I expect that all of the top experienced players (online and over the board) would expect the game rules to match the FAQ.
For the Z-man rules reprint, I would think that was likely an oversight or typographical error instead of a deliberate rules change. The sentence to "A player who is attempting to draw a tile is unable to
because the bag is empty" could be clarified with some extra phrasing, but it becomes awkward english.
images.zmangames.com/filer_public/92/3f/923f8aba-72f1-4aa5-9622-d648ad1a9aa7/kn25_rulebook_web.pdf
2022年Aug29日 01:20 • tigriscraig • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
Rereading the links threads, it may actually be possible that the inmediate end was an intended rules change. Even if that was the case, I would still much prefer to play with the longstanding original rules/FAQ. thanks
2022年Oct28日 12:26 • Zarkloum • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
French translation is aligned with the original Germain rule. I don’t understand why the behavior is different because of the English rules.
2024年Oct14日 17:35 • Ctrl-Alt-28 • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
I support the idea that both options are offered here as a variant to choose from, since it seems that Knizia himself wrote the German AND English versions of the original rules, and that there is a difference between the two versions.
I appreciate thenmal's sensitivity (“I hesitate to make a change that is contrary to the rules as written in the most recent rulebook, but also don't want to have the game work differently than experienced players expect...”) but it seems that the absence of this option is what puts the most questions about this implementation.
As the game is probably hard to find in many parts of the world, most new owners of the game learn the rules by acquiring a second-hand copy - and these vary from one version/edition/language to another.
Thenmal: "I especially don't want to add a game option that changes scoring at the very end of the game and surprise anyone playing."
I'm not a programmer, but in several BGA games, a small informative bubble appears when you point your cursor at various options. I imagine this could also be implemented here?...
I appreciate thenmal's sensitivity (“I hesitate to make a change that is contrary to the rules as written in the most recent rulebook, but also don't want to have the game work differently than experienced players expect...”) but it seems that the absence of this option is what puts the most questions about this implementation.
As the game is probably hard to find in many parts of the world, most new owners of the game learn the rules by acquiring a second-hand copy - and these vary from one version/edition/language to another.
Thenmal: "I especially don't want to add a game option that changes scoring at the very end of the game and surprise anyone playing."
I'm not a programmer, but in several BGA games, a small informative bubble appears when you point your cursor at various options. I imagine this could also be implemented here?...
2024年Oct14日 17:50 • Ctrl-Alt-28 • 開發者需要更多資訊以重現這項錯誤:
Edit: In fact, if I had to choose, I'd prefer the current implementation, here on BGA. It's the gray area that makes me uncomfortable. Another solution, without having to create new options, would be to clarify / highlight this element of the game rules prominently on the home page...
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