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#52587: "Suggest faction drafting variant"
#52587: "Suggest faction drafting variant"
這是關於哪方面的案件?
發生什麼事? 請從下方選擇
建議:依我所見,有些調整將大幅增進遊戲完成度
發生什麼事? 請從下方選擇
建議:依我所見,有些調整將大幅增進遊戲完成度
請檢查是否已有同課題案件
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# | Status | Votes | Game | Type | Title | Last update |
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細節描述
• 如果可以的話,請轉貼螢幕顯示的錯誤訊息。
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 請說明你當時想做什麼,你做了什麼,然後發生了什麼事
• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 請轉貼未翻譯的英文字句。 建議將此錯誤的螢幕截圖上傳到 Imgur.com 並轉貼連結。
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 這些文字存在於 翻譯系統 中嗎?若為真,其是否已被翻譯超過 24 小時?
• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 請簡明精確地解釋你的建議,以便讓人一目了然。
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 當你不能動作時,螢幕上顯示什麼?(螢幕全黑?部份遊戲介面?錯誤訊息?)
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 遊戲規則的哪部分在 BGA 版本有所錯漏?
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 這項違反規則之處可否在遊戲重播中看到?若可以是在哪步?(重播時左上角資訊)
• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 你當時想採取哪個遊戲行動?
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 你想觸發這個遊戲行動時做了什麼?
• 當你試著這麼做時發生了什麼(錯誤訊息、遊戲狀態條訊息...)?
• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 問題發生在遊戲的哪一步?(目前遊戲指示是什麼)
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 當你試著進行遊戲動作時發生了什麼(錯誤訊息、遊戲狀態條訊息...)?
• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 請描述顯示問題。 建議將此錯誤的螢幕截圖上傳到 Imgur.com 並轉貼連結。
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 請轉貼未翻譯的英文字句。 建議將此錯誤的螢幕截圖上傳到 Imgur.com 並轉貼連結。
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 這些文字存在於 翻譯系統 中嗎?若為真,其是否已被翻譯超過 24 小時?
• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
• 請簡明精確地解釋你的建議,以便讓人一目了然。
As I play it more, it becomes more and more clear that an auction is needed for balancing factions. Some setups are very strong with certain game configurations and the tile rotation is insufficient to avoid massive imbalances in race powers, which in turn can really mess up players starting later. Hopefully you can re-use some of the code/design from the Terra Mystica implementation.• 你的瀏覽器是什麼?
Mozilla v5
案件沿革
2021年11月10日 18:36 • mctwo • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Thank you for your work so far. This is a game that needs repeat play to truly appreciate and online is the best way to achieve that, especially in a pandemic!
2021年11月10日 18:49 • Kayvon • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Thanks for the thoughtfully-worded suggestion. We're going to keep this open to both gauge interest and see if someone wants to take the bounty on adding it to the implementation someday.
For the near-term, our primary focus is on implementing the official rules. We know faction drafting is a fan-favorite unofficial variant, but it's not as easy as copy-pasting code from another project. (It's actually easier to design it from scratch, believe it or not.) With limited time and resources, we sometimes need to be picky about what we can work on.
For the near-term, our primary focus is on implementing the official rules. We know faction drafting is a fan-favorite unofficial variant, but it's not as easy as copy-pasting code from another project. (It's actually easier to design it from scratch, believe it or not.) With limited time and resources, we sometimes need to be picky about what we can work on.
2021年11月10日 19:00 • Mogri • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
This has definitely been a popular suggestion, though you're the first one to submit it formally. I appreciate the desire for the auction, especially as that's the de facto standard for competitive Terra Mystica play. To further explain some of our considerations:
At this time, the auction variant is not publisher-approved. Terra Mystica introduced faction bidding with the Fire & Ice expansion; the Gaia Project rules (published well after Fire & Ice) do not suggest faction bidding. I can only speculate as to the reasoning there, but the publisher-endorsed balancing mechanism for Gaia Project is tile rotation, not faction bidding.
But a larger problem is that faction bidding in Gaia Project has several ill-defined behaviors relative to Terra Mystica:
- Presumably, you build the map and then bid on factions; after all, you know what the map looks like before bidding in TM.
- Does the last player still get to rotate the tiles? If so, does that happen before or after the auction?
- If it happens before the auction, how do you mitigate the starting player advantage?
You could make some informed guesses here, and certainly as a more competitive player, you'd be better qualified to do so than I would, but I would be uncomfortable proceeding with one player's interpretation of the unofficial variant, no matter how qualified that one player may be.
I suspect the community will align on a set of faction bidding rules for Gaia Project on BGA -- after all, Terra Mystica's BGA implementation is not exactly as stated in the Fire & Ice rules -- and that faction bidding will eventually be added. For this reason, I'm happy to leave this suggestion open: I expect it to eventually be integrated. But for the immediate future, we won't be adding it.
At this time, the auction variant is not publisher-approved. Terra Mystica introduced faction bidding with the Fire & Ice expansion; the Gaia Project rules (published well after Fire & Ice) do not suggest faction bidding. I can only speculate as to the reasoning there, but the publisher-endorsed balancing mechanism for Gaia Project is tile rotation, not faction bidding.
But a larger problem is that faction bidding in Gaia Project has several ill-defined behaviors relative to Terra Mystica:
- Presumably, you build the map and then bid on factions; after all, you know what the map looks like before bidding in TM.
- Does the last player still get to rotate the tiles? If so, does that happen before or after the auction?
- If it happens before the auction, how do you mitigate the starting player advantage?
You could make some informed guesses here, and certainly as a more competitive player, you'd be better qualified to do so than I would, but I would be uncomfortable proceeding with one player's interpretation of the unofficial variant, no matter how qualified that one player may be.
I suspect the community will align on a set of faction bidding rules for Gaia Project on BGA -- after all, Terra Mystica's BGA implementation is not exactly as stated in the Fire & Ice rules -- and that faction bidding will eventually be added. For this reason, I'm happy to leave this suggestion open: I expect it to eventually be integrated. But for the immediate future, we won't be adding it.
2021年11月14日 20:33 • flower2886 • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
I personally think the order could be
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding
One thing to add is that a map generation should be added that has a basic fair setup.
1. No planets of the same color at distance 2
2. No clusters of planets > 3
That would be a good basis for a somewhat fair map. There was a Gaia setup website that actually generated pretty good maps but it seems to be defunct now. I believe in addition to the 2 things above it looked at the overall distribution of planets and counted outer hex tiles vs inner hex tiles planet colors.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding
One thing to add is that a map generation should be added that has a basic fair setup.
1. No planets of the same color at distance 2
2. No clusters of planets > 3
That would be a good basis for a somewhat fair map. There was a Gaia setup website that actually generated pretty good maps but it seems to be defunct now. I believe in addition to the 2 things above it looked at the overall distribution of planets and counted outer hex tiles vs inner hex tiles planet colors.
2021年11月15日 15:27 • Kayvon • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
> One thing to add is that a map generation should be added
Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
2021年11月17日 20:22 • mctwo • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
I think the suggestion of auction sequence by flower2886 is good:
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
The last player would still rotate the tiles, which could make for a more or less balanced game, but even if there ended up inevitably strong and weak races in the game after rotation, the bidding would help even it out with point handicaps. The last player would still be motivated to not make a minority of races super super strong, as in theory players ahead of them in turn order could bid all their VP to avoid ending up with the terrible dud. I am not an expert in TM or the auction process, but I have played many dozens of games of GP here and am convinced that something like it is necessary if you want to have organized competitive play. I will still enjoy it whether or not it happens.
Thank you again for all of your hard work bringing GP to the site.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
The last player would still rotate the tiles, which could make for a more or less balanced game, but even if there ended up inevitably strong and weak races in the game after rotation, the bidding would help even it out with point handicaps. The last player would still be motivated to not make a minority of races super super strong, as in theory players ahead of them in turn order could bid all their VP to avoid ending up with the terrible dud. I am not an expert in TM or the auction process, but I have played many dozens of games of GP here and am convinced that something like it is necessary if you want to have organized competitive play. I will still enjoy it whether or not it happens.
Thank you again for all of your hard work bringing GP to the site.
2021年11月18日 13:01 • flower2886 • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
>> One thing to add is that a map generation should be added
>Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've >added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
I will try it out. Would you mind sharing what the map generation algorithm tries to consider at the moment to build a fair map?
>Do you mean the map generation that's already part of the setup right now? It's an experimental feature we've >added that may or may not stick around. If you try it out, let us know what you think.
I will try it out. Would you mind sharing what the map generation algorithm tries to consider at the moment to build a fair map?
2021年11月18日 15:34 • Kayvon • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Without going into too much boring detail, the map generation looks over every color and tries to balance the fairness between them. It doesn't care if they're all advantaged or all disadvantaged, as long as they're equal.
It looks at every planet of every color and considers the following, with different scoring factors for each:
1) Distance to a gaia planet
2) Distance to a transdim planet
3) Distance to all other planets and how much terraforming would be required
4) Being on the edge of the map subtracts from the score somewhat
Additionally, the algorithm considers other constraints aside from score, like ensuring that a planet cluster contains no more than 4 planets.
It looks at every planet of every color and considers the following, with different scoring factors for each:
1) Distance to a gaia planet
2) Distance to a transdim planet
3) Distance to all other planets and how much terraforming would be required
4) Being on the edge of the map subtracts from the score somewhat
Additionally, the algorithm considers other constraints aside from score, like ensuring that a planet cluster contains no more than 4 planets.
2021年11月21日 17:13 • Babbuc49 • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
I’m not at all a fan of auction in GP cause most of the time it doesn’t change the results and adds 30 minutes to the game but I agree it should be added as a feature since a large part of the competitive players do like it. Also I don’t get why not implementing it because it’s not written officially in the rulebook is an argument when generating completely new tiles that don’t exist in the original game is considered to be ok as a feature to add. Finally I’d have a lot to say about the random map generation but I’ll make it short saying that it doesn’t improve balance at all. Rotation is still needed, you can’t automatically balance colours because different factions (including different sides of the same colour) look for completely different features in the map, also focusing the balancing on distancing the planets is strongly biased towards nav strats while in 4th place rotation one might want to create some nice clusters to make no nav strats more viable and balance out the tech track competition. But that is just a small example out of a much larger argument.
2021年11月29日 16:00 • mOCHU035 • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
I would second the proposal from flower2886 as well.
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
- Build Map
- Last player rotates
- Pick races -> Bidding (for both races and eventual playing turn order, like in TM)
2021年12月11日 14:17 • WhiteLionEXP • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Im not even expecting this matter to be resolved anytime soon, but i figured i might aswell add the auction method our group used live for 50+ games and it felt very natural and balanced. Some minor tweaks suited for online environment :
- Build Map
- Randomly choose a player who gets to rotate tiles (OR always make highest elo ranked player rotate the tiles)
- Randomly choose order in which players will do the bidding. (OR choose order based on elo rating - Players ranked from lowest will bid first. Lower ranked players should have right to choose more since they on average play worse)
- Players bid VPs for order/position in which they pick races which is also the order/position they play first round.
- Pick races in determined order based on results of auction.
There can be two types of auctions, probably setup a poll or something :
1) Simultaneous VP bids - players choose how much VPs they bid, click confirm and results will be determined at once after reveal. (There can be nuance whether to make last player lose VPs or not but to be discussed)
or
2) (the one we used, although it adds playing time)
- Choose how much VP you bid on which position (say you start the auction so you bid 2vp for 1st. [Bidding 0vp for any position is also valid])
- Next player can either bid more for same position or relinquish that position and bid for lower position
- Players can never bid VPs for higher positions after they bid for lower (once u bid any VP for 2nd, you cant bid for 1st after)
(Case might occur where one player bid for 2nd and 3 players fight for 1st whole orbit, in that case that player just waits since there is nothing to bid for)
- Build Map
- Randomly choose a player who gets to rotate tiles (OR always make highest elo ranked player rotate the tiles)
- Randomly choose order in which players will do the bidding. (OR choose order based on elo rating - Players ranked from lowest will bid first. Lower ranked players should have right to choose more since they on average play worse)
- Players bid VPs for order/position in which they pick races which is also the order/position they play first round.
- Pick races in determined order based on results of auction.
There can be two types of auctions, probably setup a poll or something :
1) Simultaneous VP bids - players choose how much VPs they bid, click confirm and results will be determined at once after reveal. (There can be nuance whether to make last player lose VPs or not but to be discussed)
or
2) (the one we used, although it adds playing time)
- Choose how much VP you bid on which position (say you start the auction so you bid 2vp for 1st. [Bidding 0vp for any position is also valid])
- Next player can either bid more for same position or relinquish that position and bid for lower position
- Players can never bid VPs for higher positions after they bid for lower (once u bid any VP for 2nd, you cant bid for 1st after)
(Case might occur where one player bid for 2nd and 3 players fight for 1st whole orbit, in that case that player just waits since there is nothing to bid for)
2021年12月11日 16:54 • Kayvon • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Those are some fun ideas. The game engine has no access to Elo rating, so it would have to be random.
If I were to implement something of my own choosing, it would probably be this:
1) The random map generator creates a new map. No rotation. (We're already in unofficial territory here, so why not speed up creation somewhat.)
2) The last (or first?) player without a faction picks a faction that he wants
3) Everyone bids a number of VP they're willing to pay to get this faction. Probably blind bids to make it faster.
4) The highest bidder gets the faction, with ties broken by the person proposing the faction. (i.e. If you choose a faction no one wants, you'll get it for your 0 VP bid.)
5) Go back to step 2, including only players without factions. Repeat until everyone has a faction.
For a four player game, this has no rotations and three blind bids, with some extra strategic options vs. bidding before knowing any of the factions involved.
If I were to implement something of my own choosing, it would probably be this:
1) The random map generator creates a new map. No rotation. (We're already in unofficial territory here, so why not speed up creation somewhat.)
2) The last (or first?) player without a faction picks a faction that he wants
3) Everyone bids a number of VP they're willing to pay to get this faction. Probably blind bids to make it faster.
4) The highest bidder gets the faction, with ties broken by the person proposing the faction. (i.e. If you choose a faction no one wants, you'll get it for your 0 VP bid.)
5) Go back to step 2, including only players without factions. Repeat until everyone has a faction.
For a four player game, this has no rotations and three blind bids, with some extra strategic options vs. bidding before knowing any of the factions involved.
2021年12月26日 12:00 • Songo • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
I've read the proposals but why not just keep it simple and stick with F&I? There you also have a few possible maps and setups. Bidding takes care of making it fair.
By making sure races are picked before the auction it also means it won't always be the generally strongest factions seeing play
Generate map at random/algorithm/whatever, no rotation to save time (choosing this could be
Random 1st player chooses a race to be first, next player picks second, etc
Then it's simultaneous bid on the "initial order + race" combo
By making sure races are picked before the auction it also means it won't always be the generally strongest factions seeing play
Generate map at random/algorithm/whatever, no rotation to save time (choosing this could be
Random 1st player chooses a race to be first, next player picks second, etc
Then it's simultaneous bid on the "initial order + race" combo
2022年 1月 2日 15:01 • Babbuc49 • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
I'd suggest just looking at the auction system in the digidiced app, that's the best and fastest i've tried so far
2022年 1月 5日 13:56 • Windpainting • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
gaia project is very unbalance game without bidding
2022年 1月13日 16:31 • Paagalpan • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
This problem is very apparent in 2p games where the player who goes first always picks Ivits who are overpowered in this setup. A bidding structure would massively help.
2022年 1月18日 4:02 • Zarker • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
In a 3 or 4 player game, if the last player is a beginner, it's too often to create a very unfair map. In such a case, the game is divided according to the order.
2022年 1月18日 4:03 • Zarker • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Using random maps does not solve this problem at all. Random maps are mostly very unfair.
2022年 2月 1日 13:56 • dingostar • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Hello,
I do agree that faction bidding is mandatory for competitive play.
But I don't agree with the fact that map generation algorithm should be adapted by exemple to avoid cluster of > x planets.
The reason is : if faction auction is available, it will be there also to balance those map that may look like "unbalance".
Thanks for the implementation anyway.
I do agree that faction bidding is mandatory for competitive play.
But I don't agree with the fact that map generation algorithm should be adapted by exemple to avoid cluster of > x planets.
The reason is : if faction auction is available, it will be there also to balance those map that may look like "unbalance".
Thanks for the implementation anyway.
2022年 2月15日 18:25 • Kayvon • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Report short description
"Need auction for drafting initial factions as per Terra Mystica"
changed to
"Suggest faction drafting variant"
"Need auction for drafting initial factions as per Terra Mystica"
changed to
"Suggest faction drafting variant"
2022年 4月20日 21:06 • mctwo • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
Any update on this? After 100+ additional games, I am more convinced than ever this is needed for competitive play. Can anything be done to help move this along? Thanks for your great work!
2022年 4月20日 22:13 • Kayvon • 此建議尚未被開發者分析過:
While this is something we have our eye on doing, it is not a high priority for a number of reasons.
1) The feature will take many hours to complete
2) The feature is entirely volunteer work and we have families and competing responsibilities (see #1)
3) Following discussions on BGA and other sites regarding this, it's clear that no matter which approach we take to a draft a very vocal subset of players will be unhappy. (For a mild example of this, just scroll up to my previous post right here.)
This is something I'm still working on in my free time, but I make no promises as to whether it will ever be deployed. The vocal negative reactions towards optional work I've done previously (random maps, anyone?) makes me reluctant to volunteer myself for further abuse (see #3), so this isn't a high priority.
On a positive note, Gaia Project is an excellent game that has been embraced by the community at large using the publisher-provided ruleset.
1) The feature will take many hours to complete
2) The feature is entirely volunteer work and we have families and competing responsibilities (see #1)
3) Following discussions on BGA and other sites regarding this, it's clear that no matter which approach we take to a draft a very vocal subset of players will be unhappy. (For a mild example of this, just scroll up to my previous post right here.)
This is something I'm still working on in my free time, but I make no promises as to whether it will ever be deployed. The vocal negative reactions towards optional work I've done previously (random maps, anyone?) makes me reluctant to volunteer myself for further abuse (see #3), so this isn't a high priority.
On a positive note, Gaia Project is an excellent game that has been embraced by the community at large using the publisher-provided ruleset.
2022年 7月 2日 18:01 • Kayvon • 此建議已獲實施:
Happy Saturday morning. We've completed the implementation of new features that include banning, drafting, and auctions. We've also been in touch with the publisher to receive approval of these optional features.
Months of planning and volunteer hours have gone into making these a top-notch experience. Having said that, we also recognize that no single solution will please everyone. Fortunately, these optional experiences don't replace the core game experience. If you discover this particular implementation isn't for you, we would invite you to continue to enjoy the existing experience supported by the official ruleset.
Enjoy the new features! I look forward to seeing more varied factions in upcoming games!
Months of planning and volunteer hours have gone into making these a top-notch experience. Having said that, we also recognize that no single solution will please everyone. Fortunately, these optional experiences don't replace the core game experience. If you discover this particular implementation isn't for you, we would invite you to continue to enjoy the existing experience supported by the official ruleset.
Enjoy the new features! I look forward to seeing more varied factions in upcoming games!
2022年 7月 5日 18:47 • tap_d • 此建議已獲實施:
Is there a description somewhere of how the auction works? I’m really confused as to how the bids are calculated.
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